Speaker 2: No I just said the war is spilled over into Pakistan in the sense our responsibilities in pursuing it now include a much larger region that is what I was trying to say.

Speaker 5: The Taliban does not come with books, the Taliban come with guns and they kill people.

Speaker 2: So do many others.

Speaker 5: I mean the Taliban invaded Pakistan and invaded in a war and there is no question at all, in fact that the Taliban attack and Jihadist attack on Pakistan has been going on for 5 years and the United States unfortunately was fooled by Musharraf into believing that Pakistan could do something about this when Musharraf was in fact unwilling to do something about it and [???] to it, so I don’t know if you have an answer to that.  My other question, my question though is do you think that when Franklin said that the United States will be the [???] liberty of the world when Jefferson said the US navy to fight the [???] pirates [???] doctrine was formulated and when William Henry Seward said that he would leave the United States rather than allow the European powers to support to [???] power in the civil war and finally when President [???] sent the United States army to the borders of Mexico to help eject the French, do you think those people weren’t inspired by Thomas Hobbs as you have suggested that this expanded American role in the world is a Hobbs [???] do you think those men were inspired by some Hobbesian view of hegemony? I think they were inspired by a purely American view, America as the leader of the war liberation and I think it was relevant in the days of Franklin, that is relevant now.

Speaker 2:  Well I guess I again will go back to the beginning and think about Alexander Hamilton you know, in some ways is the founding father of what the United States has become and Hamilton certainly was Hobbesian and his hero of course was Napoleon.  I am obviously not suggesting that every time the United States has used force throughout its history that it has been seeking world domination.  I mean all powers use force for obvious reason, they need to, but I think there is this vision of an integrated world led by somebody, which to some extent was invoked by the British in the 19th century, but not nearly as much as we can see to invoke it now.  And I guess my vision of what a plural world requires is to try to create what is the right term collegial relations where everybody recognizes like a faculty, you know, everybody recognizes everybody’s – everybody has his own interest, they somehow have to be accommodated.  The genius of the European Union is that people just keep talking until they arrive at some kind of solution, which everybody regards as a partial victory.  Obviously the bigger it gets the more difficult that is and particularly until these bargains have been struck, which takes a long time and I think that is the inspiration of our domestic system, but we have gradually adopted a very Hobbesian view of the externals, you know, we need a enemy, well they are not hard to find, but sometimes we look to energetically.

Speaker 5: [???] just like a encyclopedia salesman who just [???] something you don’t like.

Speaker 2: Well I don’t know whether whatever is going on in Pakistan and Afghanistan largely has to do with United States at all and you know, in that sense the vision of this country parceling up the world and establishing order in places where it doesn’t exist is I don’t think a very promising view for our future.

Speaker 1: I think we might have time for one more question. Yes.

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