The Turks got involved immediately. But the Turks if you listen to what the say, they say from the very beginning this a Brazilian initiative. We were asked to come in. We from the very beginning have been wanting to facilitate something like this but we realize what happens every time we do this. You guys make, you guys over react every time we do anything with Iran. So therefore we‘re doing with the Brazilians and so Brazil is an important piece of the story. Brazil had not been involved I don’t think fundamentally Turkey would have done on its own. I don’t think Turkey would have voted the way it did. Brazil is crucial to the story.

Moderator:    Juliette any thoughts on this?

Juliette Tolay:    Yeah I just would like to add something on the whole is Turkey leading to more open societies in the Middle East or not? I totally agree with what Joshua said I just want to add one anecdote is Joshua and I we went to Syria back in October and we talked there with a couple of people and kind of the stories that we heard kind of several times was that it’s obviously a very good mood for Syria to kind of get closer and closer to Turkey and open the boarder and have more cooperation and everything. But in a way it was little bit of a dangerous move for Hasad because having so many people going to Turkey, seeing how it is, type of society it is, they might just come back to Syria and having a little bit more democratic demand and kind of expect to say you had to be a little bit like Turkey. So I think it goes into this argument that our college is working on that. Turkey by cooperating is not particularly very democratic regimes, but by talking to them and kind of engaging them is kind of by demonstration, not intentionally but unintentionally leading, might be leading, I mean we need to wait a couple of years and see how this things work out. I think there is something here that might be happening.

Moderator:    Well thank you. Sorry yes go ahead.

Juliette Tolay:    [IB] I’m sorry yes I totally agree with what you said let me come back when I said that there is an immigration problem in those couple of countries, indeed there was an immigration problem. I personally think that it’s not a problem with migrants, I think it’s more problem of perception and framing of the issues and that for some reason, there are some blockages there that people are not able to overcome, but hopefully they will soon. And I think one of the key words, is something that you said that within the EU area you have this freedom of movement, like you don’t have any borders anymore, everyone within the EU can travel as much as you want, you can work wherever you want, and I think this is helping a lot integrating internally with EU.

If Turkey is within the EU and probably, we don’t know when turkey is going to be in the EU, if it happens and probably once it happens, there will probably be this kind of limitations probably, it’s like seven or 10 years duration, where freedom of movement will basically come later after a couple of years. But I think once reach that stage we are going to see that it’s going to ease a lot immigration problem, because we have…a lot of my friends, Turkish friends in Paris, they are really kind of in a way trapped in a situation where they are dying to go back to Turkey, because they want to see more family, they have kind of this Turkey’s developing and there good things but they are afraid that if they do so they will not be able to go back again to France or to Germany or to wherever. So I think just if we reach that point of having free border, it will ease everything, like people will be…if they want to go back they can go back, if they want to stay they can stay. It will also have signals really important [IB] that the EU is an inclusive project and Turkish people have their place as everyone else in this EU [constriction] and so in terms of this perception and framing it’s going to change a lot the way people behave and then it’s going to be kind of a traditional issue of how to integrate population that has different qualification and know how to deal with unemployment and kind of more traditional social economic issues but not so much the identity thing and the freedom of movement which is key here.

Moderator:    Thank you very much for a fascinating discussion, actually I think there may be some things that you are addressing that could be the subject of a whole discussion, for example the issue of Turkey and the promotion of democracy in the Middle East. I personally think that it’s not a black and white question that there are actions that Turkey is taking, it’s example that maybe promoting democracy and I think there are Turkish actions that might be setting back democracy. So it’s a complex issue, but it’s probably worth a separate discussion. Anyway thank you very much for a fascinating talk and thank you to the audience for excellent questions and participation.

[01:13:26]    [END OF FORUM]

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